How is it possible for a musician of Mark Zonder’s (drums, ex-Fates Warning) status to participate in the recordings of an album without even knowing about it? Well, that was the least interesting thing that Gary Wehrkamp and I discussed a few days ago. Rushing back from work, and having avoided a couple of road accidents on my way home, I managed to be back in time in order to hear Gary talk about the recording process of Shadow Gallery’s latest release “Room V”, their current plans, as well as his pending fatherhood!
Hi, Gary. Thank you very much for calling and for having agreed to this interview with Get Ready to Rock.
Gary: No problem, it’s my pleasure! I am always happy to speak with everybody that likes our music. It is my pleasure, really.
You have acquired the habit of releasing an album every three or four years, and this is also the case with “Room V”, since there is a four year gap between this release and your previous album “Legacy”. How easy is it to convince the labels that this is the right amount of time needed in order to record the next Shadow Gallery album?
Gary: I am sure that the record label is not happy with that (laughs) time frame. Really, it takes us that long because this is the time we really need. There are so many different factors that come into that – from the beginning to the end. It’s not necessary that we spend four years of forty-eight months just going over the same material. Usually, it’s divided into different stages and that also applies in this case.
I can give you a reason why this happened in every album. We don’t really take so much time off, but we just work on it in an extensive pace. After every record, what we normally do is...by the time we finish the record, we realise that there are various rooms for improvement in our songs, the representation of the album, so we’re trying to upgrade our equipment and our software. This is something very difficult to do in the middle of a record, because you have compatibility issues.
With “Tyranny” we got into a big problem, when we tried to update things in the middle of the record, and it really set us back. We upgrade our equipment, we change some things. This time we included closing down our band-own studio and moving all operations to my house. Beyond that, we needed to decide what we wanted to do as a band, you know, as far as the record label is concerned. We were researching that and getting involved with all our options, making decisions and dealing with contracts...that really ended up taking over a year’s worth of time. That was over a year and a half before we started writing any ideas.
Beyond that, we probably spent six months gathering fresh ideas, and then we started recording. We did start having some problems that set us back. The day that we were supposed to start recording we had some major delay that took us back about eight to ten weeks. The actual recording process of the record was about a year, a couple of weeks to mix and master and we were done March pretty much. Once it’s all set and done, it’s easy to go “wow, it’s been four years”. For us it’s normally a year, a year and a half of recordings.
“Room V” is the continuation of the idea that started with “Tyranny” seven years ago, and you already had a break with the release of “Legacy” in between. How did you guys manage to get back to the spirit of a story that was seven years old and present us with such an incredible album as “Room V”? I cannot seem to be able to stop listening to it – even today, during my lunch break, I still found some time to listen to some of the songs! This album has invaded my privacy – I cannot seem to be able to think of any other album at the moment! I guess another question I wanted to ask is why did you not continue that story straight after “Tyranny”.
Gary: (laughs). Well, we were not really ready to do it straight away. The recording of “Tyranny” and the whole process took so much out of us or so many different reasons. It was a very difficult and challenging process. When we were really done with that album...well, if the band was to break up, it would be right after finishing recording “Tyranny”. We didn’t even consider touring for it or anything – we all said “OK”, and we went back to our lives. We all put our lives on hold towards the end, for such an extensive period of time.
When it came the time for “Legacy”, it was more an issue of getting an album done and trying to do it in the opposite fashion of “Tyranny”, which was wagering over every detail, and then wagering along with all the equipment failures and then everything else. It was the right time to do that record and then...even when we started “Room V”, it was never intended completely to be a continuation.
Carl (Cadden-James: bass, vocals, flute) had it in his mind, and we talked about it even for the “Legacy” sessions of continuing with only one or two songs. Way early on, he had an idea of doing a song called “Death of a Mother – Birth of a Daughter”, and possibly it was going to be a lyrical song, so we said “OK, that will be one of the songs that we’ll do for the album, and then we’ll fill it out with other things”.
I probably wrote forty to fifty different musical ideas, worked with Mike (Baker: lead vocals) on probably about thirty of them – even at the point when we were recording and demo-ing, we had about an hour and a half of music. It was good, but it wasn’t really totally moving me, like a lot of the stuff that we do, so I was really unsure as to whether we should do it. Then Carl talked more about expanding the song into three songs, and he also got some more musical ideas from myself and also a couple of songs from Brendt (Allman: guitars, vocals, bass) and Chris (Ingles: ex-member). That really inspired him, and all of the sudden, he thought that the musical ideas had the exact emotion that would border the song that he wanted to do to begin with.
In a very strange way, and completely opposite to what we did with “Tyranny”, we let the music dictate the story line, or I shall say that Carl did, because he is the lyricist for the record. He put all these musical ideas into a certain order, since he had an emotional image, something like a screenplay of a movie, of what the music was telling him. That’s the reason why we ended up with a couple more instrumentals than normally.
In the beginning it was all instrumental, at least in his head. Even before we recorded anything for a master track, we had the running order of the songs, exactly as they were going to appear on the record. At that point, it quickly grew, which, as the producer of the record, was a very tough decision for me because I really liked the idea that it provided us all with a very specific direction, but on the other side, it meant that all the work that I previously done had to be completely lost, and Mike’s as well. I had to make a very hard phone call to Mike and say “look, we can talk about it as a band, of course, but I really think that we need to move forward on the strengths of a concept album and the continuation of "Tyranny”, which really rules out all the work that we did for the last year”. He was very disheartened by that, of course, and additionally it is also very difficult to have many lyrical writers in a concept album, so that ruled out a lot of his additional input that could be obtained. I really felt that, even though it was going to set us back, in the end it would be the best decision for the album and gather the most attention to the album.
Looking back now, I am very glad that we made that choice. It developed along the way as an album, and then when we made that decision, that was all it was ever going to be – it didn’t really change much at all!
I am really surprised as a non-English-speaking person to find out that you based your lyrics upon the music. It really felt like it was the other way round. I have to say though that it is a perfect marriage. I strongly believe that this is the best album that you guys have released so far, and that comes from the mouth of a person that has been following the band’s career from the very beginning. What is your perception of the album?
Gary: That is very difficult for me to judge – I don’t know! Now that I’ve had some months to separate myself from it, I can start to appreciate it. Really, throughout the middle of the process I had a lot of doubts whether it was even going to be a good record. It didn’t stop me from going to the direction that we chose to go. Especially for going a follow up to “Tyranny”, from a press point of view, it was a very successful album. I knew that if we were to do a follow up and it was really a let down, it would really tarnish the whole thing. I don’t know – I still have some doubts as to how good of a record it is. To me, I’m sure that it’s the most mature record that we’ve done, but I really cannot judge as to whether it’s any better or any worse than anything else.
Well, I already consider it to be a classic, so I hope that one day you will start liking it too!
Gary: One thing that is really true and I think that you’re getting out of it is that we designed the album so as for things to get better after thirty listens, than they are even after five or six, and the downstart to that is very hard to get somebody and to show them everything that we’ve put into it, after only listening to it once or twice. Many times, that’s the only chance that people will give a record! The people who do like it, once they get to that twenty five to thirty listens more, then the emotion can really start to set in even more. That’s something we have designed to do, especially within our mixes. We mix so many things further back, like there are so many things in there that you don’t even hear until you get to a certain point. That’s an investment that we’re willing to make, and we hope that the audience is willing to make the same kind of investment towards the band.
OK, we talked about our impressions towards “Room V”, but what has been the general reaction of the music press so far?
Gary: Especially in Europe, it has been tremendous! We’ve always had great press in Greece and countries like that, but it just blows me away because I always expect some sort of criticism. We always get great press in Europe. A little harder to come by in America and I think that there, our popularity has faded at least from our initial fans from the “Carved in Stone” days. There’s doesn’t see to be as many people around, so things are tougher here. But we kind of expected that. America is so picky and so corporative in what they choose, and even the fans are. I don’t want to say that they’re snobbish but they just have high expectations of everything.
I have a personal interest in asking the reason for you mentioning Greece as the country that really supports your music.
Gary: I think that it’s probably because the press in Greece that we had in the past was great, and the first review that I read for “Room V”, was from a magazine in Greece. They gave it a hundred out of a hundred and they called it “the absolute masterpiece – one of the best records of the last decade”! As the very first article for me to come across, I couldn’t believe it – I was like in tears that they thought that much of it, because I would never rate it that high! I guess that this just stands out for me.
It seems that my fellow-countrymen have a similar taste to mine when it comes to good quality music. Even the people who have never listened to “Tyranny” before will have no problem following the story, the way it is presented in “Room V”. I understand that this question is at least seven years old, but I feel that I need to ask you about the conception of this story, for the sake of the people who are going to be introduced to Shadow Gallery’s music through this album.
Gary: Well, I have to give much credit to Carl, because he is the genius behind the story, and I have to give him further credit because he didn’t just go up and write that stuff and say “well, here’s what we’re doing”. Way from the beginning of “Tyranny” we spent a lot of time, and he was very fair to the rest of us by saying “this is what I’m thinking – let’s get together and talk about it”. We watched movies like “JFK” together, he gave us a lot of books...we kind of all had to agree that this is the direction that we had to go, because it is not just like writing a song – a song is making a statement about many, many things. It’s coming from somebody on a very personal basis – it changes when it comes from a group of people. He was reading a lot of things like manuscripts like Bob Harris and that gave him a lot to think about. With this new album, he was particularly inspired by a couple of different books. When he started getting into them he told me the books, and I left the studio that day and went to the bookstore and bought all of them. It was things like “Demons in the Freezer” by Richard Preston and even more popular books like the “Da Vinci Code” and the encryptology that’s involved with that, which is something that I think we’re all interested in. It kind of went from there and it just grew...this new album isn’t so conspiracy-based, so ‘government issues’ as the old one. We tried to make the story of this album to be more of human interest, focus more on these two people getting together and looking into the spiritual side of things. At the core, we say a lot of things, what we feel about government, corporate, big money and greed, but at the end it’s really going to come down to what any person believes for themselves - even these characters, after all they’ve been through. At the end of the day, it’s their own take, their own perception, their own spirituality and what feels important. We think that the audience will probably feel the same way.
It is quite obvious, though, that you leave the door open for a continuation of this story in the future.
Gary: The door is always open for an imitation of another chapter...actually there has been more already written for it (note: I knew it!). In two different time periods, there’s more written – one which is a song called “Two Shadows”, which is unfortunately only on the Japanese release. That was in a way out of our control, cause we never intended to do that song, but in our contract with our Japanese distributors we had to agree to give them one bonus track on the record. We checked a couple of different ideas, but we figured that it was going to compromise the integrity of the concept album if we stuck just any song at the end of it. The only way for us to do it properly was to continue the story after the song “Rain” and get a little deeper into what happens. That takes things a little further, but not too much and then beyond that there is another song which we had written and recorded in the past, for one of our past records, which is the next part of the story too.
I hope that I’m not making a mistake by saying that this is the first time that you’re officially working as a five piece.
Gary: As a five piece? I guess so...there are six of us, but Chris Ingles didn’t participate in any of the recordings, but he was involved in the writing process.
Good that you told me, because I was just about to start asking all these questions about the difference between the recordings of this album and your previous efforts, etc.
Gary: Well, he was part of it, because he made a valuable contribution, but he was absent really from the recordings. In the last couple of years, at least on the recordings, I’ve seen him once or twice, and I have been in every single recording session, so...he was there at the beginning to say “yes, I’m into this, I will do this”, and then he was there for a couple of times to add a couple of keyboard themes and also made a valuable contribution. Beyond that, he kind of disappeared for a while, so we recorded the album without him.
Which, would you say are the strongest points of this new album?
Gary: Song wise? That’s kind of difficult to say. I have my own personal favourites, but I’m probably very biased for the reasons why I like them...
I like “The Andromeda Strain” because, even though it has many different parts, it seems to flow, and I also like “Vow”. One of the things had I most enjoyed about the whole process, because most of the recording process is honestly a real headache for the producer, was the writing which was really rather easy for this record, for like 95% of it.
One thing that’s never really happened is that Brand has always been a major contributor as far as musical material is concerned, and I have too, but we never really worked together that much. That has happened on very few songs like “Society of the Mind” from the last record – that was the first time that the two of us wrote something together, and that was already on the third album.
With this album, with Chris not being around, it kind of forced Brendt and me to get together and work on stuff, and this was a really great fun procedure. Whenever I hear the songs “Room V” and “The Andromeda Srain” – I hear the collective ideas and how we shaped them. These are the favourite songs of mine, and “Vow” because of what Carl brought to it. It was probably the easiest song I wrote musically. It was the first thing that came into my head, I made a demo of it in probably three hours and I ended up keeping a lot of these guitar solos and keyboards from the demo. I didn’t even replay them because I they had an emotional quality, but he brought them to a whole new level with the lyrics and the vocals.
One reason why I also really like “The Andromeda Strain” is because it has all the classic elements of a Shadow Gallery song, especially the band backing vocals which are something like the band’s trademark. In general the album moves through many different emotions, all of which are presented in an equally impressive way.
Gary: Thank you for the compliment. I think that we always had many different sides to our music that we wanted to express. We could probably very easyily be a heavy metal band if we were to focus on our heavier songs, or even a symphonic, new age band if we focused on those elements of our music. It’s never really enough. You really need to explore both ends. To me, if you were painting a picture, I wouldn’t like to be told that I could only use the darker/bolder colours. You really need all of them in order to create the right picture. That’s the way we approach it.
You have already told me about the songs that you personally like, but I would like us to also discuss the ones that I was personally hooked on - songs like “Comfort Me” and “Torn”. Both these two songs are very emotional to the point that I believe that the person who wrote them has, in one way or another, been through a similar situation as the heroes of this story. Care to explain?
Gary: That makes sense. I wouldn’t want to ruin it for you and tell you either way...there is always a sense of real life issues in our songs, but there there are others which are based on fiction and others, which are somewhere in between. I think that Carl is very good at putting himself in such a situation, and when he writes words and melodies that goes with them, he doesn’t just write something up. He really works on these things, and to get Mike to sing it...it’s not just a matter of singing and hitting the right notes. Every note has to be moving, every single line. If a song doesn’t have any emotion, if it doesn’t move you, then it’s just a waste of time. It’s got to be convincing – it has to sell the lyric, and if the lyric is really emotional and the vocals don’t sell it that’s when the whole thing kind of fails.
Did you feel, while the album was being recorded, stressed or under any sort of pressure? Do you have to put yourself in a specific mental position in order to create music, or is it something that comes naturally?
Gary: You know what? Things like that do tend to happen to me, but usually not in the middle of the recordings. It is a labour of love, and I do love every second of it, but it is also a very big pile of work. In the middle of that, we’re trying to make sure that we do bring such emotions across, but it’s more like a job – a job to be convincing and to be precocious in what we play and what we say. I don’t think that I really open myself up to the full emotion of it until about two months after. I can listen to “Tyranny” now, and when we did this album, it didn’t move me emotionally. I just thought about what was wrong with it, and what I could have done to make it better. That was like an everyday production job: what is weak about this record, and what we can do to improve it. It was about three months later that I could listen to it completely detached. In “Ghost of a Chance”, there are a couple of lines to it that I never realised how good the vocals and the music are together. They now give me Goosebumps and move me every time I listen to it. It sounds arrogant to say that, but at that point it was able to move me to the point that I would be able to listen to it like everybody else does. Throughout the entire course of making the record, I didn’t hear it the way you hear it. I have a checklist of all the things that we have to do, and the list is very long that I have a very stressful time getting those things done.
OK, let’s talk now about the few extra musicians that helped you with the recordings of some of the songs of the album – people like Marc Zonder and Laura Jaeger who once again appears on a Shadow Gallery album.
Gary: I guess that you have the bonus edition of “Room V”, because Marc Zonder played on one song from that CD. On that album we had completely different participations altogether.
Laura Jaeger: her participation was almost mandatory, since she also a character from “Tyranny”. It is very difficult to use a different person, but we did have a lot of problems scheduling that. It really got put off and changed a lot – there was a period when it looked like this wouldn’t be able to happen. That’s one of the reasons why I didn’t manage to get some decent sleep during that period, because I had to deal with issues like that.
I was thinking stuff like “what other female vocalist can we get, and how can we sell that as being the same person?”. That’s a tough question when you deal with an already established character, and an already established voice, so it was good that this worked out after all. That was one of those very last minute things.
Her participation was great – I am good friends with her for the last ten to fifteen years and it’s a lot of fun working with her. Unfortunately, this time she had a very bad cold, so it was quite a painful process for her to get in there between sneezing and blowing her nose and trying to sing and sound like she didn’t have a cold (laughs), but she did a good job with that.
Now, Marc Zonder’s participation was completely different, because he was never asked to participate and didn’t even know that he did (laughs). I had written a lot of songs with Marc during the whole course of making “Room V” – I have been also working in several different songs with Marc and DC Cooper (ex-Royal Hunt vocalist). A lot of these songs were not fully developed, but some were developed more than others. Sometimes, he would just give me a drum track and I would just throw whatever I had in my mind and mail it back to him – we wrote that way a lot!
One of the early ideas was that he had that drum part, and I just decided on that particular song that I was going to give it no thought whatsoever and just record the first thing that came to mind – the first sound that happened to be there when I turned the keyboard on, and record it. I did that for every step of the way – just a very free artistic sort of thing, and the end result was really not that all spectacular, as you would imagine (laughs). It was a fun process though, and an idea that we never really used in fear of making songs with weird structure.
I ended up adding a middle section to that afterwards, because I thought that it was a boring song without any sort of words. I ended up throwing a keyboard part and singing something that I thought that was very David Gilmourish, very Pink Floydish from the album “Division Bell”. It was so much of a “Division Bell” song in feel, that I thought that we really couldn’t use it, because it was probably not original enough. That made me decide to “shelve” this song which was called “One With the Crowd”. When it came out as a Pink Floyd medley, which we threw together quite quickly, I thought that the only thing it lacked was any sense of originality. Then I decided to use this song and add it along with the rest of the parts that we recorded and that’s what we did. After it was all done, I called Mark and said “hey, by the way, you are on the new record. I will send you a copy, send me a picture to put on the booklet”. It wasn’t like he knew that he was doing that. He recorded those drums years ago, and when he did it, he did it to no music and no idea what was to become of it.
What about the rest of the people who played on that record?
Gary: We have Arjen Lucassen from the band Ayreon, who is also on the Pink Floyd medley. He plays there, and also does a guitar solo on the song “Seven Years”. That was kind of a log time coming, because we’ve become very good friends over the years. Mike and I have participated with him in three or four different recording sessions, and he always said that he would return the favour if we ever wanted him to appear on a Shadow Gallery album. Actually, I did ask him to appear on a song from the album “Legacy”, but we end up finishing this record so quick that I didn’t bother to chase that any further and decided to wait for the next record in order for this to happen. We sent him the track, he did his part and send it through the Internet, and that was that – pretty quick! He played the perfect part – exactly what the song needed, and made a great contribution...he’s just so talented!
I know that you normally don’t do things like videos that would help you promote your albums, but now that you’re with a new label, I was wondering if that strategy was to change.
Gary: We have been talking about it. We actually have a video at works for “Cliffhanger” - “Cliffhanger 1” from the album “Carved in Stone” and “Cliffhanger 2” from the album “Legacy”. I joined those two songs together and made one eighteen-minute song out of it, and we have a company that’s been doing a video for that. They kind of stopped doing that in order to work for the promotion of “Room V”...we have been talking about doing a video. We were more interested about doing a “making of” DVD, since we have videoed a lot of the recording sessions for this new album – down from the early days of the writing sessions and band meetings to trying to record the drums and the rest of the instruments. We are probably going to focus on that, since we have a lot of the footage ready. We have to look on thirty hours of tape, trying to decide which to keep and edit all the interesting parts together.
I was looking on your website, hoping to find any European tour dates, but nothing was to be found. What’s the deal here?
Gary: Were not known for touring – we’re not a touring band. We have started talking about it, and honestly it kind of got dropped. So many things have happened in the last six weeks to everybody, and it really have changed our outlook a little bit. We were hoping to be touring after the album came out, but that was not possible for a variety of reasons. Then we started setting our focus on a little further down the line. Even though we are looking sometime in January of February next year, we are hoping to come to Europe then, but we don’t have any exact dates or venues scheduled. Honestly, right now it remains to be seen. It’s a great idea, we are all excited about doing that, but when it comes down to try to book time to rehearse on that stuff, we cannot seem to be able to agree on a single day. We all have prior commitments – I have prior commitments for every weekend till the end of 2006! It’s really a challenge to book a tour for 2007 when it’s so far away, and we don’t know if that’s even going to happen...I wouldn’t be surprised if we ended up not touring at all.
That would be really sad, because I was really looking forward to seeing you guys live this year.
Gary: You know, I agree with you – that is very sad, but there are so many other circumstances, so...I don’t know!
Oh, come on Gary - how can you possibly release an album like “Room V” and not give people the pleasure to hear these songs live! It’s like putting a kid in a candy store and asking it not to touch anything!
Gary: (laughs) Well, maybe it’s more like putting a kid inside a candy store and say “you can eat all the candy that you want, but you just cannot come back and eat it again”. You have the album – there’s the candy! You just don’t get to sit with a big group of people and eat the candy (laughs).
That was a very diplomatic answer – now I know why they let you do this interview today (I laugh). Let’s assume that you do decide to go on tour, and you do decide to come to London and give me the pleasure of seeing you guys live.
Gary: There is a possibility, remote as it may be, to come and play in the city that you live in – right near your house (laughs).
What I am really curious about is to find out if you will be able to re-create your very rich sound live. Is this an easy task to achieve?
Gary: No, it’s not easy, but it’s very important to us. My own experience is really going back to when we were rehearsing for “Carved in Stone”. We had a lot of the same problems...so many vocal lines overlap when the vocalist only sings one line, so we had to start dividing it up – who would sing those overlapping lines and work on the backing vocals. It really took a long time, and we had just vocal rehearsals for so long. A couple of times a week we would just meet to go over the songs and make sure we can sing them, before we ever committed ourselves to doing a tour. We had to make sure ourselves that we could sing these songs and sing them well. We were able to do it, and it was great when it came together, but the tour didn’t happen, so...
Many bands use choirs nowadays – have you guys considered doing such a thing?
Gary: That would be an option, but our preference was to do it ourselves.
How do you perceive the band’s future at this moment in time, Gary?
Gary: I don’t know and it is the most questionable period for us. That’s always after we complete recording a new record. If we are not playing, it’s really easy to kind of fall back into our lives. Carl is in a very unique position since he works in a started up company and holds a big position there. I am currently playing with two other bands every weekend, I just bought a new house and my wife is pregnant...
That’s great Gary – congratulations!
Gary: Thank you. Right now I wish I had time to start writing more material, but I have a landscaping to do in my new house and there are also a lot of other things that need to be done. There are not a lot of things happening right now – usually that’s how it is a few months after an album is released. I would imagine that, two months from now, we will start writing things and start focusing on the next album and what we want to do with it.
I was looking at the photos that you have posted on your website from the release party of “Room V”, and what I really enjoyed while looking at the pictures with your fans, was the feeling that you were surrounded by friends – a family feeling. How would you describe your relationship with your fans?
Gary: We don’t really separate ourselves from anyone. We don’t think that we are a band that has fans – anybody who likes this kind of music is one of us. We are all into this thing together. We could all just be friends. If we have something in common like enjoying this music, it doesn’t matter that we’re the ones who created it. The bottom line is that we all enjoy it. I really enjoy meeting new people, it’s been great for me. When I saw that you put a post on our guestbook, I am happy to send you an e-mail and say “hi, how are you? I am Gary, thanks for your kind words”. The release part was nice – it was full of friends, family and fans. We started by trying to come up with a number of people that we wanted there, which we thought should be 150, and then we decided to expand it a little bit and allow 40 fans to come in, by order of who would sign up first beyond a certain date, which ended up nice. It was nice to see our fans showing up with their Shadow Gallery T-shirts, they fit in well and it was really great to see that successful merge. We had fun.
Are you happy with the way people have received your music so far? Do you believe that the band has managed to receive the recognition that it really deserves so far?
Gary: Probably yes and no! It’s very funny – the reaction to our music is of such extremes, probably as extreme as our music is, heavy to soft! There are very few people, even in the area that I play, who know who we are. Most people don’t know anything about me – they might know me as their music teacher, or somebody who plays bass in another band...they don’t even take it for real. If it’s not on a major label or on the radio, they don’t even think that it’s a big deal. We kind of get overlooked at times, even here in our hometown! It sometimes feels like we’re the best-kept secret! We are probably much more well known over in Europe and Japan than here in the States. When we do get recognised it’s to such a wonderful level and that kind of makes up for it. It’s funny but it seems like we either get ignored completely, or we’re told that we have created masterpieces (laughs) – there is not much in between!
Gary, thank you for the interview. All the best for the future, and I really hope to finally manage to see you guys on tour one day and meet you in person. The famous last words?
Gary: I don’t know about famous last words, but if you send me your address I will be more than happy to send you a signed poster and a T-shirt of “Room V”. Thanks for the support!
Interview © 2005